Thursday, March 01, 2007

For Paul Tucker

So this is your version of burying the hatchet eh?


From Paul tucker on another forum:
I see a number of folk are dabbling in basic physics these days. Bless them! Even a certain blogging SrRKC is giving it some neuronal play ; viz: “Even if the number was even the heavier bell exposes one to more injuries.Moving a lighter bell faster can produce more force, and more power, than moving a heavier bell slower. The argument should be about whether the kb is as good of a power tool as it is a strength endurance tool. Those that say it is too light to be a power tool just don’t understand the force velocity curve.”

------------------------------------------------- My (PT) late night rough power calculations FWIW: Your fair average quality 250kg deadlifter = 550lbs over say 2 ft = 1100ft/lbs over ~4 secs = 275lbs/sec

Your fine older Oly lifter (name withheld) 90kg snatch = 198lbs over say 4 ft = 792 ft/lbs over ~1 sec = 792lbs/sec. What does this prove? Powerlifting is a misnomer, as we know. And that the worm is turning…albeit via a circuitous route. Light kbs give better power development. Where does this place the hardstyle “power is better” mindset? Probably should stick to the 1 pood. Perhaps I’m missing something. Comments please. The other PT


Rif:
Paul,since I am not welcome on the site you posted this I will reply here( which you could have done as well)

First off how many 551 pound deadlifters do you know? Although that's an average dl in the power world its not very common at all amongst 'average' fitness enthusiasts.Secondly, that's only one rep you are referring to. How many times can your average 551 # deadlifter do those reps at those speed? And how many days a week?

Most intermediate kettlebell lifter will be able to put up those numbers I wrote about regularly and easily.Or close to them. That is precisely my point.Even with light kbs with compensatory acceleration training one can increase the amount of force for each rep without increasing the weight. It's not about heavy or light weight its about the right weight for your training goal.

And although I will agree with you that powerlifting should indeed be called strength lifting, as any good lifter familiar with WSB and Louie knows, speed in the lifts is EVERYTHING;especially when the weight gets heavy. No one tries to lift a heavy weight slowly.And most decent powerlifter knows they can judge their strength that day by how fast they can move their warmup weights. When light weights move slowly you are not in for a strong day.

And although the day we timed our snatches we didnt have anything fancy( just a stopwatch) to measure EXACTLY how fast the reps were, the 2 and 3 sec numbers were pretty close. The power expressed by the lighter bells was close to or better than that done with the heavier bell.And these were sets of 5, not single reps.

That's NOT to say heavier isnt good, or better, it's great if increasing strength is the goal. If increasing power or speed is than a slightly lighter bell is better. If it's too light( your 16kg analogy) it will move too fast to create enough force for any kind of overload.If you can swing or snatch the two pood that fast there is always the Bulldog.

So if one wants to increase the amount of force they are producing each rep they can go heavier, or try to swing the bell faster. Both are valid.

AS far as your hardstyle question that is precisely the concept: increase force production via increased acceleration."Virtual force" as Louie calls it.

This is Zatsiorsky's( louies) submaximal dynamic effort approach. Both the DE day AND the Max effort day are considered max effort workouts. Only on DE day,with the submaximal load you are trying to put max force on the bar( or bell). You are just adjusting for decreased mass with increased acceleration. Why is this so hard to comprehend?

RFD has NOTHING to do with the biomechanics of the movement.

And for cate, although I dont have a study proving these numbers we did take the time to time this in the gym and the empirical evidence( the difference in how fast the bells moved) was obvious.AS far as results go no, I didnt measure my vertical jump but knowing that using submax weights with comp acc would produce as high or higher levels of force per rep helped my program design. I realized I could use lighter weights and train to move them faster and still keep my strength up. For an old injured guy this was a great discovery.

And as far as your desk jockey clients( same as mine) go this has profound applications: they can use a smaller weight and produce the same amount of force as with a heavier one, by using compensatory acceleration and hardstyle techniques.More force equals more overload which equals more adaptation: the basis for all physical improvement.

To Scott Shelter: I thought you were a WSB guy; you should care how much time it takes you to perform your max squat, bench and deadlift.It would give you insights as to your weaknesses and how to improve them ANd you are right ,you dont't need a calculator but it shouldnt scare you either.

18 comments:

Paul , Marguerite , Alex, Luke 'n' James said...

Rif "exploring the boundaries of the body" will require charting of waters as yet unexplored by yourself. You might find trying a few exercises such as "GS"(horror there's that word again!) presses and 2kb jerks(not heavy) will prove highly beneficial. To deny yourself this experimentation undermines your credibility as a "tester". You can test in private without compromising your commercial interests. In a few years perhaps you will get back to competitive sport , who knows?
Good luck!

Chris said...

Happy Birthday Rif

Mark Reifkind said...

Paul,

I choose to explore those boundries that look to produce postive effects on my broken frame, not injure it further. After 35 years of regular and intense competition I have nothing left to prove.
I also choose to try to progress to exercises that my body is qualified to perform. For instance with my right shoulder ROM, two kettlebell overhead work is imbalanced and I am not ready for it.
I have played with all of these exercises in the past and would love to be able to do double jerks.

But I have found them to cause more problems than they solve.Same with presses.Not ruling them out in the future, just for now. Amongst others. If you read my blog you would see which ones have gone by the wayside.

Let me say this once again, slowly so that you hear it : I HAVE NOTHING AGAINST GS AS A SPORT, AND HAVE THE HIGHEST RESECT FOR THE ATHLETES THAT COMPETE IN IT.

But it is not a fitness system that I can tell( where are the training protocols I can read?) and I dont use sports as training tools. You train FOR sport.

And as to competing again I have no desire, in gs, powerlifting or anything else. The risk is just not worth the benefit.I am tired of being in pain. For me NOT having my shoulder and knee replaced and maintaining as much work capacity and function is the competition.

thank you for commenting here.

Mark Reifkind said...

Chris,

thanks man! I can't believe I'm a Half Century old, lol!

Tommy Shook said...

Happy Birthday Rif! All busting chops aside, enjoy your day.

Mark Reifkind said...

thanks tom! no worries mate.

Paul , Marguerite , Alex, Luke 'n' James said...

Rif , Pavel can lend you a copy of the Smolov edited Russian guide to handlebell sport published in 1991. The translation is interesting but the info is all there. A system explained in great detail.
In time , a more user friendly version will ensue.

Scott Shetler said...

"To Scott Shelter: I thought you were a WSB guy; you should care how much time it takes you to perform your max squat, bench and deadlift.It would give you insights as to your weaknesses and how to improve them ANd you are right ,you dont't need a calculator but it shouldnt scare you either."

Rif,

I'm middle of the road when it comes to this. I follow many of Louie's principles for sure, however, I don't have tendo units attached to the bar during workouts, nor do I feel I am at the level necessary for that stuff. I love that Louie does it and proves that you can become damn explosive doing box squats and speed pulls, however it's not the most practical thing for me to implement thus my approach is more simplified. I just watch the bar and when I'm moving the bar I'm having it watched. If it's moving fast then we're right on, if it's not moving fast enough we reevalute and if necessary, take some weight off the bar. I'm not afraid of the math (well, actually I am, I married a math major and math scares me even more now) but numbers and %'s are nothing more than a guideline to me, at this point in time anyway. What's more important to me is knowing how and when to deviate from the plan if what is planned would not be optimal for myself or one of my athletes I'm training on a given day. As a result what ranks highest on my list is being able to accurately, AND easily, qualify one's daily level of preparedness for the planned workout. My wife would be proud of me, I used a work with 4 syllables!

Thanks,
Scott

Mark Reifkind said...

Scott,
thanks for the reply. I wasnt trying to get on you personally but I thought you would understand what I am trying to get out with dynamic effort training.I dont need a tendo unit either but being concious about trying to apply as much force as possible to the bar( or bell) as fast as possible is an important training concept to remember and utilize, wouldnt you agree?

I'm not a math guy either but louie's work definitely showed me the importance of some basic math applied to my lifting.the %'s are definitely a guideline but there's a world of difference between 70% and 90% loads.

take care

rif

Royce said...

There is another point between HS and GS that I hate to bring up because , and the only evidence I can show is anecdotal. And it's my anecdote..LOL.
But the hip snap ( wether it is explosive or not ) is a "primal movement pattern". I used to use it over and over and over doing manuel labor.
NOBODY but NOBODY can tell me that minimizing the hip snap will make me functionally stronger.
Flip a 600 lb tire, explode of the line to block your opponent from tackling your QB, DL 3 times your bodyweight, move and set 30 tons of flagstone to landscape a walkway, pick up your precocious 3 year old, or even a bag of groceries, it all uses the hips.
In my opinion the KB is the best way for the average person to train the hips for strength endurance and just plain old endurance.
All the rock throwng the from a few of the GS guys and a few OLY guys sucks.
KB hardstyle using the hip snap will help almost any sport, that has already been proven By Ethan Reeves and countless others.
I have nothing against GS, hell I think its one of the coolest sports out there. 2 kbs and a platform how freakin simple is that.
Hell someday I might get the bug to do it myself. But right now I am doing HS for a very defined, clear, precise reason that I have proved to myself over and over again. I want to be strong, enduring, explosive in the patterns that I most use in life. Sorry, I don't think I have ever used that GS form any time in my life.

Paul , Marguerite , Alex, Luke 'n' James said...

Royce - you are confusing different applications of force. Obviously some sports and activities require brief periods of maximum force but you should know that manual labour requires careful energy management if you are to make a living as a landscaper , farmer or Ukrainian coal miner. Now and again max force is called for but most manual labourers are very good at energy management.(8 hour days remember?)

The other thing to remember is that snatching and swinging a kb is quite different to jerking a kb. Please try this exercise and report back. First , forget you ever heard of the terms GS & hardstyle. Pick up 2 reasonably heavy kbs (at least 70% of your best press)(if you have 2 matching ones) rack 'em and then jerk overhead. Recall a jerk is not a press or push press. It only locks out with power starting at the feet and using the legs/hips/core/back .You will I think find more than 5 reps quite challenging. In the sport of kb lifting it requires some pretty serious and precise power applications. Valery can jump squat 200kg...that is power!
If you think kb sport is for weaklings , I would suggest unless you can put a 60kg bell OH you don't have much power...compared to the average Oly lifter. Explosive , RKC-style power.

And now the big one - Why don't "they" (RKC) embrace the kb jerk?????
regards
paul

Mark Reifkind said...

royce,

great point man. not only will the hip snap help all athletes but it will also help the average person develop above average strength and power in the seat ( pun intended) of power.
HS is relative, of course, to the persons qualifications, age, injury history, goals, etc.

Most of my clients are between 50-65 and use as much speed and power as it appropriate for their level.Regardless they still focus on standing up as strongly as possible and using the hips as the main driver on each swing and snatch.

I do agree with Paul that the jerk is a different animal than the swings and is an excellent exericse for developing more power.

It's not gone away from the rkc as it is going to be covered in the Level 2 cert.
Since it is essentially a jump, it is not applicable to all who, like me, can't handle the lumbar loads of jumping.
BUt if I could use it I would.

Mark Reifkind said...

Paul,

the reason the kb jerk isnt focused on in the level one cert is that it is considered a more advanced movement and not necessary for the beginning level, which the rkc teaches instructors to teach. it is covered in level 2.

Didnt I read that VF uses the swing clean and press only as the beginning moves in his fed?

Royce said...

Great points Paul, but I wasn't nessicarily talking about power just form. Hip dominate movements are more natural, there fore IMHO more functional for the average joe. It was 8-16 hours a day of hip dominate moves I did as a laborer.
No I don't think GS is for weaklings, I am not dissing GS at all. VF moving the 70's around like he does, he has to be strong.
Except VF remarks about the RKC style being dangerous and unhealthy I have no problem with him and still often youtube him to watch the dude work, he's a monster. Freakin monster.
I will even go to the "other" forum to read former boardmemebers training logs, CI being one of my favorites.
I also really like the C&J and often do it with the bulldog, when I'm done with the RoP goals the C&J for power, strength, or explosiveness will be a regular part of my routine, it has been since I read the original RKC manuel. And I have done more than than 5 reps with 2 70's, 6 to be exact LOL.
A lot of people have gotten on one side or another and there has been some pretty nasty things said, i am not addressing any of that.
The strongest most fit and best put together I have ever felt in my life is when I worked for a paint shop. I moved mass amounts of 5 gallon buckets around a day between 55 and 70 lbs average ( sound familiar ), but we moved them from the hips, after I stoped wotking there I always wanted a way to recreate that feeling, if I would have thought about it I might have even tried a dumbell swing..LOL. The instant I saw a kettlebell visions of snapping it ( without max power actually ) up came dancing in my head, then I saw the swing in action.......yeehaw search over. And it works perfectly, it feels even better than the bulky bucket.
Like I said it's anecdotal, but it's my anecdote, my personal experience that brought me to use KB's and therefore I don't just accept somebody's word with no evidence. ( including Pavel by the way ) I experimant, I try different forms,I try different movements ect.
Hip dominate Squats, DL, swings, cleans, C&J, thrusters ect are THE SHIT man. JMHO

Brett Jones said...

My 2cents worth:
Paul,
you have come through your own injuries but that does not mean it is the panacea for everyone -
you include strength work with your high rep work - RKC includes both as well -
Jerks will be covered in the level 2 - What has worked for you might well ruin another person.

JMO

Paul , Marguerite , Alex, Luke 'n' James said...

Absolutely fair enough comments guys. I mean no harm.But as always what works or is safe is relative to a person's health , age , muscle memory and mindset. It is hard to comment on the RKC course because I do not have ready access to the info. I'm trying to educate myself but , hey , a lot of my conclusions are drawn from my experimentation and analysis.I remain a long way from the action as it were. At least I'm out there giving it my all and I remain a contented guinea pig.
Another day...more lessons learnt.Knowledge is power!
cheers
paul

Royce said...

Cheers mate!!

Mark Reifkind said...

Paul,

When I read you last comment my first thought was: I could have written that EXACT same thing(except for not knowing the RKC). I think we are more the same page than our discussions would indicate.

thanks for the discourse.

More press mistakes from today

 1) Gotta engage the rhomboids when setting the low rack position.Lock in 2) Elbows up is crucial 3) 'Straight  up' on the unracking...